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Post by Royals & Braves GM on Jul 3, 2015 1:20:12 GMT
Braves send(TO ORIOLES): SP Mike Kickham (ML)
Orioles send: CF Juan Cintron (AAA) SP Bud Norris (ML)
Dbacks send: 2B Mark Hahn (S A)
Braves Confirm.
EDIT: Trade being reworked.
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Post by OriolesGM on Jul 3, 2015 13:09:57 GMT
alright gotta work out some details and then we will post a huge trade
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Post by Frank-PadresGM on Jul 4, 2015 2:01:40 GMT
As of right now the trade makes no sense. If Robert is going to run a sim with this trade other than knowing that Kickham is supposed to go to the Orioles, he knows nothing. Where are Cintron / Hahn / Norris going? Just a hunch here but is AZ really giving up Hahn for a 33 year old Norris? Not something a bad, rebuilding team would EVER do.
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Post by OriolesGM on Jul 4, 2015 13:25:33 GMT
yea this is not the trade, so everyone knows.
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Post by OriolesGM on Jul 5, 2015 2:11:19 GMT
Orioles Send: Juan Cintron (CF)(AAA) - AZ Bud Norris (SP)(ML) -Atl John Lamb (1B)(R) - ATL Dave Givens (CF)(S-A) - AZ Drew smyly sp ml az mitch brown(SP)(ML)-ATL Kyle brown(3B) (AAA)-ATL
DBacks Send: CJ Edwards(SP)(ML) - Balt Mark Hahn(2B)(R) - Atl
Braves Send: Mike Kickham (SP)(ML) - Balt Ignacio Geronimo (RP)(ML) - AZ P Leandro Linares(AA) -az P Jim Voyles(A) -az
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Post by Royals & Braves GM on Jul 5, 2015 2:27:12 GMT
Orioles Send: Juan Cintron (CF)(AAA) - AZ Bud Norris (SP)(ML) -Atl John Lamb (1B)(R) - ATL Dave Givens (CF)(S-A) - AZ Drew smyly sp ml az DBacks Send: CJ Edwards(SP)(ML) - Balt Mark Hahn(2B)(R) - Atl Braves Send: Mike Kickham (SP)(ML) - Balt Ignacio Geronimo (RP)(ML) - AZ P Leandro Linares(AA) -az P Jim Voyles(A) -az Braves Confirm. Thanks!
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Post by OriolesGM on Jul 5, 2015 14:18:40 GMT
dbacks also confirm
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Post by Frank-PadresGM on Jul 5, 2015 15:10:09 GMT
Again with this being an intra GM three way we will need to examine it closely. For every one reviewing this trade here is a breakdown by team:
Atlanta Sends: Kickham (SP)(ML) - [Balt] Geronimo (RP)(ML) - [AZ] Linares (RP)(AA) - [AZ] Voyles (RP)(A) - [AZ]
Atlanta Gets: Norris (SP)(ML) - [Balt] Lamb (1B)(R) - [Balt] Hahn (2B)(R) - [AZ]
Arizona Sends: Hahn (2B)(R) - [Atl] CJ Edwards (SP)(ML) - [Balt]
Arizona Gets: Geronimo (RP)(ML) - [Atl] Linares (RP)(AA) - [Atl] Voyles (RP)(A) - [Atl] Cintron (CF)(AAA) - [Balt] Givens (CF)(S-A) - [Balt] Smyly (SP)(ML) - [Balt]
Baltimore Sends: Cintron (CF)(AAA) - [AZ] Givens (CF)(S-A) - [AZ] Smyly (SP)(ML) - [AZ] Norris (SP)(ML) - [Atl] Lamb (1B)(R) - [Atl]
Baltimore Gets: Kickham (SP)(ML) - [Atl] CJ Edwards (SP)(ML) - [AZ]
I think if Baltimore would give up Goins (23) instead of Smyly (29) going to the D-Backs that would be much more consistent with a rebuild in AZ. The Braves IMO are getting hammered, but I think AZ is being treated fairly and the intra GM aspect is the first responsibility for a commish. The O's will walk away with Kickam and CJ Edwards, two of the best starters in the league, IMO. AZ gets a pretty good package to rebuild with (assuming Goins). I don't personally see anything in this for Atlanta, but there must be more to Lamb/Norris/Hahn then I see, because I believe they could do much better in trading Kickham. I would like to see what others think on this trade as this is an unprecedented intra GM deal, all previous deals were very minor in scale.
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Post by joblank on Jul 6, 2015 0:52:51 GMT
My only question, is ATL getting a proper return for a top 5 ace and a #2-3 pitcher? Seeing what they are getting in return, there is really nothing they are getting that will benefit them greatly for another 2-4 seasons. Just saying, if someone offered me Norris, Lamb, and Hahn for Clayton Kershaw, I would not take it.
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Post by Cubs and Blue Jays GM on Jul 6, 2015 23:57:08 GMT
Now, my scout could be wrong, but Kickham alone almost has more star rating 5, then Norris (2 potential), Lamb (1 potential), Hahn (3.5 potential).
I don't know why they would trade a 5* pitcher for a terrible pitcher in Norris who had to pitch out of the pen, a fringe spect in Lamb, and a decent spec in Hahn. Considering the rebuilding Braves give up more than they give, I don't like it. My scout also likes Geronimo, he's solid and controlable and a great option out of the pen.
I would have personally given up way more for Kickham, and I feel like the Oriels and D'Backs get a way better deal than the Braves.
I'm going to leave the decision up to everyone else, but I feel the Braves do not get enough in return.
I feel like this should turn into a Braves-Oriels trade to make it move even.
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Post by OriolesGM on Jul 7, 2015 0:51:29 GMT
braves are also getting rid of kickham due to the contract, and since two top 20 pitchers just got traded due to high contracts the kickham trade makes sense. also as far as the dbacks are concerned, im building that team my way which means huge bats. when cintron comes over take a look at that OF in 2-4 years. dbacks want to take smyly over goins because 1. dbacks dont want any salary in 2-4 years and 2. goins being a extreme flyball pitcher is going to give up a ton of homers in arizona.
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Post by Frank-PadresGM on Jul 7, 2015 4:10:31 GMT
(1) Atlanta's financial situation is not even close to Miami's. Miami has has the 20th highest budget in the league and they had 7 guys that were going to account for about $140M alone. Some with contracts like Morrison still getting $25M when he is 40. Atlanta is 21st in budget and will lose Myers this next season leaving them with exactly 1 player making more than $11M and that is Kickham. And Miami has no chance to move Lester or Morrison with those contracts. (2) The two pitchers that the O's get in this deal are among the top 5 in the league and CJ Edwards has an amazingly great contract as well. The two pitchers that Miami moved are very good, but neither is elite and neither is really worth the contracts that they have. (3) Miami got a good deal (even the computer AI liked it) with getting Bumgarner etc for Fernandez (4) If Atlanta is going to dump salaries to rebuild then why a 33 year old Norris? Apparently the O's scout thinks that Lamb is outstanding, both of my scouts think he is a 2 or 2.5 star. So Atlanta is trading Kickham for Hahn? Really? Even with the salary dump of Turner, the Marlins got a spect that i didn't think was very good, but they liked him and they got a starter in Molina that is young and will make the rotation, unlike Norris, and Turner is not Kickham.
I hate getting involved in other guys trades but there is absolutely no doubt that Kickham could get a lot more than that for Atlanta. We have also as a league tried to keep intra-GM deals rare and small in scope, making this trade unprecedented. As the Padres/White Sox GM I would have loved to do a trade to move Goodwin to Chicago, but I didn't want to go there and have even that big of a trade. I have had two intra-GM trades and in both cases it was an exchange of bench guys, and no one objected. Not everyone has commented in the forum, but so far only 1 guy is trying to justify this trade as making any sense at all and that is Casey. I really think this trade needs a re-work with an eye to what teams would do IRL, which I believe could land both starters in Baltimore without objection. I would also love to hear the Atlanta GM's take on this.
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Post by OriolesGM on Jul 7, 2015 4:34:54 GMT
what is the big deal on this trade? all of us 2 team gms have a clear vision of what we want our two teams to do. the atlanta gm knows what he doing with his team and confirmed a trade, what is with all this bullshit trade discussion? if a intra gm trade is totally lopsided, then im all for vetoing it, but why is a trade between two gms even being discussed? he knows kickham is good, i asked what he wanted in trade and we agreed on a trade. anyone could have asked him for a trade right?
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Post by thezombee on Jul 7, 2015 13:43:30 GMT
I think the intra GM trade is alright, don't think Casey is trying to benefit one team over the other in this case, and that's what really matters. But it is true that Atlanta is probably not getting enough for a Top 5 pitcher, even if his contract is not optimal. People have to be responsible for their own decisions in this game, but since the Stanton trade was vetoed for similar reasons, I don't think it would be fair to let this one go through without at least talking about it, and not the other one. In my opinion, if Atlanta got another Top prospect from Baltimore it would look like a much better trade, especially since the Orioles are getting two of the best pitchers in the league.
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Post by Royals & Braves GM on Jul 8, 2015 16:49:27 GMT
I think the intra GM trade is alright, don't think Casey is trying to benefit one team over the other in this case, and that's what really matters. But it is true that Atlanta is probably not getting enough for a Top 5 pitcher, even if his contract is not optimal. People have to be responsible for their own decisions in this game, but since the Stanton trade was vetoed for similar reasons, I don't think it would be fair to let this one go through without at least talking about it, and not the other one. In my opinion, if Atlanta got another Top prospect from Baltimore it would look like a much better trade, especially since the Orioles are getting two of the best pitchers in the league. what prospect would you add to the deal if you were him? with the current situation that the Braves is in, I'd definitely like to be sure of getting optimal value here
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